Benladen: @IlllllllllllllI I think I just tried to articulate my thoughts re: OFWGKTA (following yours) in the 2nd 1/2 of this [post on soleone.org in a thread about my previous post here].
IlllllllllllllI: I think you're right about the pitfalls of OFWGKTA, even the politics (also re: your Coup/Public enemy point). I don't know why Eminem is somehow more relevant to the general OF conversation than, say, Ice Cube.
Benladen: He isn't. But those are the grounds people want to dismiss them on. And if they provide me the perfect counterexample, I'll run with it. Rap fans are fucking terrified of the idea that certain things are worth saying more than once. It's fucking weird.
IlllllllllllllI: Oh, I didn't mean your point about Eminem, I see what you're responding too. It's just odd give how close they are to Amerikkka. Including with the misogyny (though they haven't done anything as self-subversive as "It's a Man's World").
This is beside the point, but I remember the ICP christian "reveal" as the weird possible thing.
Benladen: I still can't listen to Thy Unveiling without bursting into frenetic, giddy laughter. Though I'm really starting to like the idea of ICP as like, some sort of post-Bush Doctrine Moscow Trials. And yeah, I mean, the Eminem comparisons are there, & aren't totally superficial, but OFWGKTA definitely draw on a larger tradition. I've always sort of wondered what rap would look like if it could acknowledge something like "cartoon rap" as a subgenre, that would cover horrorcore/acid rap, Wu-Tang, a lot of gangsta rap, & probably a ton of other shit.
IlllllllllllllI: Immediately I thought of nerdcore, Dr. Octagon, Del the Funky Homosapien, the adult swim MF doom album, oh fuck fuck Ugly Duckling.
Benladen: Yes! But instead we spin in circles talking about how Authentic all this shit is, and fucking gut it of what's interesting.
torrentofthings: @Benladen @IlllllllllllllI Eminem is not free of flaws, but he has more interesting things to say than ICP do.
IlllllllllllllI: ICP is opaque to me, honestly. My experience has me distrusting your point about their reactionary influence. At least the kids I knew who were attracted to it were already the reactionary underclasses, pseudo-racist, proto-tea party. That's glib actually, not proto-tea party at all, I'm struggling for the right characterization. Have you seen Louis Malle's "God's Country"?
torrentofthings: I don't really see any politics in 'Chicken Hunting.'
Benladen: I honestly love both of them immensely, for wildly different reasons, but I broadly agree with you.
IlllllllllllllI: Everytime I see you in juggalo dress, I feel so happy.
torrentofthings: Kind of wonderful kind of terrifying.
Benladen: @IlllllllllllllI I haven't [seen God's Country], but I want to now, this sounds wonderful. I know the type of people you're describing, they're exactly the sort of juggalos I knew in middle school, and I agree that that's their "base" or whatever the marketing term would be. But a lot of their music makes explicit anti-racist overtures, and I always got the impression that they were trying to expand their fanbase to include the less disenchanted underclass to their side with that, which etc etc. "Disenchanted underclass" was a fucking stupid way to put that, but now I cant think of a better way.
[re: no politics in Chicken Hunting] @torrentofthings @IlllllllllllllI Well I mean, misogyny is definitely political. But I'm thinking more along the line of songs like Red Neck Hoe, where if you listen the background repeats, "Fuckin' bigot" to give the idea that this is more an attack on ignorance and racism than women (if you want it to be).
IlllllllllllllI: @Benladen I think the whole thing is up on youtube [see below]. I get that sense, somewhat. It's just that the audience's brand of possible revolution seemed to be only in the Khmer Rouge sense. That is, the rural midwestern audience, again, I only know the local variety. There is definitely a ressentiment exclusion, though.
torrentofthings [re: Red Neck Hoe]: @Benladen @IlllllllllllllI This is interesting; almost an attempt to alienate their ignorant audience. I have never heard ICP be PC before. I have always seen them as exclusively '4chanesque' shock attacks. (I mean old 4chan when it did mean something).
IlllllllllllllI: I am actually way more freaked out it being explicit.
torrentofthings: Why is that?
IlllllllllllllI: Just in contrast to what I've been thinking about OFWGKTA, the need to caveat it seems like, well, Moscow Trials. I'm not sure what way you meant the Moscow Trials earlier, but I'm thinking in the Zizek/Brecht sense. That their guilt is embedded in exactly the explicit disavowals.
Benladen: Well, Carnival of Carnage is their first album, so they have to hide it in the beat, but (iirc) it becomes more explicit as they move toward their "Unveiling." And yeah, the idea of ICP as (this kind of) counter-(pre-)revolutionaries is something I'd never thought of before, so its hazy.
torrentofthings: It's definitely a defensible argument. I think there is a problem with the hip hop music scene that is an ingrained misogyny, but ICP have always seemed to be outside of the Tupac/Biggie descendants that are permanently stuck in this trap, which gives them a slightly different angle on a genre which should not be bogged down by such issues. Almost all of the English Grime rappers have taken a step away from it also.
Benladen: Oh I mean, don't get me wrong, I think they're still Evil Fucks, crass opportunistic exploitation artists, but the way they go about being these things is endlessly (to use your words) fascinating & terrifying, and above all entertaining. Maybe a better way to phrase my idea is that if there is a "core" political project to ICP its to subvert any & all potential (community-based) political energies into an anti-political, demographic "community," which ultimately takes the form of the theological.
torrentofthings: 'tis indeed interesting. You have piqued mine. I will now listen to ICP for objective interest, not pleasure.
Benladen: The most fun I ever had with this was organizing an "ICPLP" (listening party); all you need are the Joker's Cards, some cheap facepaint, and a few openminded (or unsuspecting) friends. I would also suggest alcohol, but the only time we tried that the cops busted in and made me pour it out before anyone got to drink any.
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